Your opinion on Gay rights

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Tiana on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:49 am

I am supportive of all LGTB rights. My thing is, whether I am opposed or think it's unnatural or not, it isn't my place to say how other people should live. If I were to walk into a church and tell everyone that they were no longer allowed to be Christian they had to be Pagan, I would get laughed at, or mobbed. If that is how they want to live, well everyone has said their bit, why not let them live their own way? It isn't doing anything to me. It isn't doing anything to my life... Or rather it wouldn't be if people would stop freaking out about it and learn to live and let live. And 'Love thy neighbor.' to quote your religion, 'an harm none.' to quote mine.

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Miara on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:09 am

I understand where you're coming from but the "Love thy neighbor" command doesn't mean I have to support their decisions. I can love a person without supporting their decision. As a Christian, I am not supposed to be ok with their decision, nor am I supposed to just "tolerate it." So, I don't support gay rights.

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Fearix Kamori on Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:30 pm

If you want to talk about religion and the 10 commandments then I have a beatiful come back from the same text.
"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13
Religiously we are taught that it is wrong. Even if some churches have started to execpt them, it is only because of the strength of their presence. Now I have nothing against them, and they can do whatever makes them happy. As I beleive that people are allowed to be happy, however that doesn't mean that I like the idea.

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by 13obthepirate on Wed May 01, 2013 3:24 pm

To quote my religion
"She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he sees what God is doing."
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Thu May 02, 2013 12:02 am

Okay, let's go with it not being "natural".
It's also not natural to use plastics, burn fossil fuels, pollute your living space, pierce your ears or get tattoos, or any of dozens and dozens of other things people do every day. It's not natural to shave your legs or armpits (for women) or your face (for men). It's not natural to starve oneself into a state of perpetual starvation in order to be skinny enough to meet societal standards, or to wear high heels, or to (biologically speaking) refrain from engaging in a sexual relationship once one reaches sexual majority.

And yet, all of these things are done every single day, all over the world, by just about ***everyone***. You're using plastics right now to use your computer or to ride the bus/drive in a car, burning fossil fuels, pierced ears, refraining from taking a mate until you've entered into a binding agreement, etc.

What's the difference?

As for Leviticus: Well, if you're going to quote one passage from Leviticus, keep going. Quote the part where the book states it is acceptable to sell your daughter into slavery, as long as it's not to a neighbouring nation. Don't forget the part where they state that it's abomination to eat shellfish (That includes shrimp, lobster, and crab, folks) as well as pork, and the part where that exact same book states you can't wear mixed fibres (polyester blend, also an unnatural fabric and a major component of every sports jersey!) Don't forget the part where Leviticus specifically forbids men to trim their hair at their temples or beards. Oh, and if you need glasses, don't approach the altar in church.

Did I miss any?

Moving on: I really am wondering about this: " I can love a person without supporting their decision. As a Christian, I am not supposed to be ok with their decision, nor am I supposed to just "tolerate it." So, I don't support gay rights."

So, wait, does that mean that I don't have to support or tolerate Christian rights? I should not support or even tolerate the right of Christians to have churches, to have tax exemption status even though they get mixed up in politics, and should I not support your right to worship as you please even as I disagree with it?

(Amended to add: Again, I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I am pointing out another point of view, another angle from which to view a situation... rather like how a tree can have one shape when viewed from the south, but entirely another when viewed from the north. Everyone should embrace multiple ways of seeing things; it's the only way humanity as a species will get over themselves and move past war, hatred, killing for an agenda, or denying basic human rights over tradition. "Cultural relativism" is an important concept that needs to be taught in schools today!)





Last edited by The_Pepper on Thu May 02, 2013 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Tiana on Thu May 02, 2013 12:09 am

^^^

Our religion says we can be with others of the same gender, and this country is supposed to be built on tolerance of ALL religions and beliefs. So we aren't we tolerating?!? (more a rhetorical question than anything. It is something that drives me insane.)

!3ob, that is an AWESOME quote, I love it. Smile

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by 13obthepirate on Thu May 02, 2013 6:36 pm

Kurt Vonnegut. He has my 2 favorite quotes of all time
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Miara on Mon May 13, 2013 2:38 pm

Well, in all honesty, most people don't support Christian rights either. In regards to "Cultural relativism" shouldn't intelligent design theory be taught as well? Are we to be denied a part of education because it states that an intelligent being *might* have created it?

And the stuff about Leviticus. You seem to have over looked the fact that Jesus came to fulfill the law. And a lot of those laws were created by the religious leaders of the day, which while they had good intentions, they can seem a little miss guided.

And yes, you can discriminate against me because I believe that every thing was created for a purpose rather than nothing doing nothing and suddenly exploding into everything for no purpose. Honestly, I don't care if you do; I just want the facts to be correct.

I don't tolerate gay rights because I want to be in heaven with them. Homosexuals are not going to heaven, the Bible is clear on that. They can be saved, and that is my goal. I want them to realize that what they are doing is wrong. That's why I don't support gay rights.

Here's what Intelligent Design Theory is, in case you don't know. http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Thu May 16, 2013 10:07 pm

Actually, legally, "intelligent design" should not be taught in federally funded schools because that is against the Constitution's guarantee of "separation of church and state" "Cultural relativism" is not a legal concept, it is an anthropological concept. So, no, ID should not be taught in schools that receive federal money. Churches do not pay taxes for the same reason, therefore, they have no fiscal say in the federal and state legal systems either. That is the Constitutional law.

So ... wait, all of Leviticus BUT the one against Homosexuality are written by misguided religious leaders? What makes *that one biblical law*... and ONLY that one verse... the only valid one in the entire book of Leviticus? I really would like to know.

I am not discriminating against you. I am asking you to examine why you are discriminating against others. However, if you are okay with following in line with the racism, sexism, and heteronormativism that constitutes the anti-homosexuality movement, that's your choice.

I, too, want the facts to be correct.

See, I feel that people who don't follow what Jesus says to do are the ones who are doing something wrong and who need to be saved. People who don't sell all their goods and give them to the poor:
Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."

Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.")

Jesus said to accept and love others, regardless of your opinions:

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up disputes, but love covers all offenses.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because love covers a multitude of sins.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.

1 John 4:8
Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:19
We love because He first loved us.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Romans 15:7 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


John 15:12-15 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

In my worldview, it is those who do not follow ALL of the tenets of the bible that are wrong. Are all of these written by misguided religious leaders as well?

And thank you, I know what Intelligent Design is. However, I want to point out one more fact that everyone should know. In the scientific method, there is a "hypothesis" which is considered a guess based on observations that has not been been proven using rigorous, repeatable, and measurable scientific methods. Once the hypothesis has been put to the test, it is either "accepted" or "rejected". (Not proven or disproven, just accepted or rejected.) After these scientifically valid tests have been performed, re-performed, repeated in different areas and yielding the same results, then and ONLY then does it become a theory. Therefore, evolution is a theory; it has been tested systematically and exhaustingly and has been proven to the limits of scientific ability. A theory is considered a fact in the science world. Remember the "Theory of Gravity". We all KNOW it exists, but because it cannot be adequately explained yet, it is considered a theory; a proven fact, but one that still needs more explanation.

A hypothesis, however, has *not* been put to any scientific testing methods. Therefore, intelligent design is only a hypothesis, as it has never been proven using scientifically valid methods. It is accepted on faith, without any sound scientific reasoning to back it up. While there is nothing wrong with having faith, if we want the facts straight, I just wanted you to know the correct definitions of these words.

Hope you have a great day today!
Smile




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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Ipoopmagic18 on Sun May 19, 2013 6:59 pm

uhh... yeah... I love gay people. They are usually the ones who have been through the most crap and can be the most understanding individuals you can ever meet. There are exceptions to this as with anything but I have yet to meet a gay person that judges me.
In all honesty I think 'cherry picking' the bible is the same as burning it. You can agree and disagree with the things it says, but don't try to cover up the fact that laviticus was probably high when he wrote down all of those crazy rules OVER A THOUSAND YEARS AGO.
Also, question for miss. pepper,
How many times has the bible been translated, rewritten, taken apart and rewritten, translated and twisted and pulled over the last two millennia?
Guy and girls, I think you need to sit down and SERIOUSLY look at the bible as a poor, torn, battered thing that has been used for more people's ends than a battered old hooker in Vagas.
My point is.... You can't believe everything you read.
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Mon May 20, 2013 1:46 pm

To Magic Pooper:

You are absolutely right that cherry-picking the Bible is an extremely selfish act; choosing what does and what does not apply to a person based on your own personal likes and dislikes. I still don't understand why every other single law in Leviticus doesn't apply to anyone, but *only that one* does.

Actually, thank you very much for bringing that up about the Bible!! The Bible has been translated, re-translated, mistranslated, deliberately re-written, abridged and expanded upon to suit the political moods of the day, such as is the case with the King James version of the Bible (he re-wrote it, edited it, and added passages wantonly in order to promote his own agenda.)

Also of interest: the Bible in its original form never uses the words "good" and "evil", indicating a polarity of direct opposites. Rather, the Bible, written in very nature-oriented, organic languages, uses the terms "ripe" and "unripe" when literally translated, which simply meant "ready for God's grace" or "not yet ready for God's grace". It only meant a state of being, a state of consciousness. It did not mean anything beyond that. There was no battle between good and evil, rather, there was an understanding that some people have lessons yet to learn and experiences yet to live through which they can become ready to be graced by God as a true devotee.

Think how different the world would be had THAT been translated correctly, rather than turned into some huge battle.

Miara: I understand your point that you wish for gays to be allowed to heaven, so, therefore, you feel that they should be treated like second-class citizens now. In order for their afterlife to be wonderful, they must go through absolute hell in their life. That is what I see you are saying.

However, I would point out that taking care of each other in THIS life is far more likely to gain you the afterlife that you wish. Is it what Jesus said to do, to drive people to suicide, depression, alcoholism, and many other issues simply because you disagree with the way they were born: IE, the way God made them? If God is infallible and cannot make mistakes, then obviously it is not a mistake that homosexuality (in all mammals, all the birds studied, and humans) exists. God, obviously, wanted it that way. Isn't that the argument I hear in favour of Intelligent Design, that "God wanted it that way?" So what is the difference between gays being allowed be be true to how God made them, and intelligent design?

You all already know my disclaimer that I am not trying to change your minds, only open them to new ideas. Education, knowledge, and new ways of seeing are the only way in which things happen; such as Civil Rights for black people (they, too, were treated as second-class citizens and it was upheld by many religious people that it was God's will that blacks be enslaved and not considered human, based on quotes from the Bible), women's rights (the argument against women getting the vote was based on many Biblical passages), and the right to have a different religion and yet still EQUALITY FOR ALL (in the US Constitution.)


http://www.npr.org/2013/05/20/184829036/bans-of-same-sex-marriage-can-take-a-psychological-toll
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Miara on Tue May 21, 2013 5:59 pm

I return once more to saying that I don't hate gays, nor do I ostracize them. I don't foist the bible upon them either.

You know how cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light? Well, that is life. Chaos and sin--evil--its all the absence of God. He did not create people to "consummate" (if you will) with their own sex. That was a human idea, much like the atomic bomb or guns. I'm not trying to blow it out of proportions, (which may actually be what I've just done, but I'm not sure how else to try to clarify my opinion) but though I tend to assume people will choose to do good rather than evil, there is real evil in the world. And yes, gays may not be inherently evil, but might they be opening a door? Just a thought.
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Ipoopmagic18 on Tue May 21, 2013 7:10 pm

(Not trying to rain on your good and evil bit here) But you aren't addressing the valid points that have been brought up. Please explain to me how your socially and culturally influenced perceptions of 'good' and 'evil' adress our arguments. Unless you have no idea how to adress our arguments. I really would like your opinion on the information we have given you. So unless you won't voice your own opinion because it conflicts with your beliefs, I don't see the point of your post about said 'good and evil'.
(Now to pick apart your argument.)
(1st sentence.) Thank you for clarifying your intentions in your first sentence, it is nice to know that the tone of your answer isn't disrespectful. However, it implies that you feel that you need to clarify your own beliefs and intentions to not only us but yourself. So your argument is already shaky because you sound unsure of your own beliefs.
(2nd sentence.) .....I feel like you're trying to make a point, but it is lost in the vagueness of your sentence.
(3rd sentence.) uh. ok, so God created everything. so god created free will.... so that means that he intended for people to make their own choices... so that means he knew that there would be gay people. Unless he didn't know and decided he didn't like it. But then that would mean he isn't all powerful and all knowing.... so.... is 'he' really god then?
(4th sentence.) yes. and yes some more, those are human ideas. By stating a well known fact you are validating what you are saying, unfortunately homosexuality is viewed in animals, so UNLIKE a gun or a bomb (VERY nice that you compared love to a destructive device of war and death, it REALLY implies that gay people fill you with some kind of disgust in the same way war does.) Homosexuality IS NOT an idea that only humans made up. So thats your main argument and point completely deconstructed.
(5th sentence.) MORE self validation on your part, I daresay you must be feeling attacked by our rhetoric.
(6th sentence.) so you're saying homosexuality is evil? but then that means that homosexual love is evil. but since I'm assuming you don't thing love is evil does that mean it is a different kind of love? can that be proven? is it made by different chemicals? if it's not, then scientifically that means that homosexual love is the same as heterosexual love. so........ love is evil....? that... really... does not sound like jesus.
(7th sentence.) So you admit love isn't evil? You just admitted you don't think gay love is evil! so what is your point? and a door to what? satan?

(Conclusion....) You contradicted yourself throughout this whole post. Make up your mind or be more clear at the very least because I'm confused. here, let me make a list of questions I have for you.

1. what do you think of the reality that the true meaning of the bible has been lost due to mistranslation, cultural and language barriers and political ambitions?
2.why are you so fiercely avoiding the fact that you are deliberately cherry picking Leviticus?
3.can you adress the fact that by logic both Miss. Pepper and I have proven 'god' isn't all knowing. (ex: god creates free will, god gets upset by gays, if god is all knowing then he would have known about this so why is god upset? conclusion: god is a jerk.)
4. what about Miss. Peppers WONDERFUL question about the sociocultural perceptions of 'normal'??? what's your opinion on that?
5. can you also give your opinion about the civil rights thing..? because bible people really did use that argument... and look how silly it sounds now.
and finally.... question 6. can you please clarify what on earth you were going on about with good and evil..? it was so confusing, and as I said before, all you did was contradict yourself.

And now for my own self clarification. I'm sorry if I made you angry or upset, I'm not attacking you or your faith, all I want are some clear answers.
If you can't say what you really think because your interpretation of the bible says it will cast you into hell then don't. I'll respect that.

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Tue May 21, 2013 8:26 pm

* Jaw drops*

Magic Pooper, I want you on my next debate team.

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Miara on Wed May 22, 2013 8:31 am

I was trying to be helpful and offer clarification since my point is being ignored. Repeatedly.
God created free will, but we twisted it. He would rather that we love him and follow him of our own choice rather than being forced into it. And no, I'm not clarifying for my own benefit, I'm trying to clear up the misconceptions you are creating for yourselves as you read what I have said.

Onto your questions
1. Possibly, but I'm inclined to say no since the translation I read is translated directly from the Greek texts.
2. I said one thing about Leviticus. From that one thing you get cherry picking? I'm confused as to your logic here. Please clarify.
3. I was asked my opinion on Gay rights. Now I'm trying to stay on that specific topic. I doubt you'd appreciate my opinion on most other things, since you seem to think my opinion on gay rights is intolerant. It is. I don't tolerate everything and I refuse to. And before you try to tell me that's not godly or the Bible tells me I should be tolerant, Jesus was intolerant, and I'm trying to be like Jesus. Which once again brings me back to saying; *drumroll* I don't hate gays, I have several gay friends in fact, but that doesn't mean I support all their decisions. (This is my point, in case you lost it)
4. Normal is whatever society deems it to be... which is precisely why I'm not normal in any stretch of the imagination (but that's beside the main point, so please don't nit pick)
5. Honestly, I don't really care all that much. Sure, if I had slaves, I wouldn't necessarily like it, but slavery used to be normal. Just like women not having a voice, I wouldn't like it, but it used to be normal.
6. The good and evil thing was just to make you think. I admit it didn't have much relevance to the current argument, but I like making people think. And I was trying to use it as a peaceful segue back into the topic at hand.

And so to conclude. For the most part I don't care what you think of my opinion. I was asked for it, so I gave it. Next time, if you're going to try to tear through it, please warn me so that I can provide you with the politically correct garbage that I'm supposed to say when asked. Thank you for your time, and please, don't ask unless you intend on knowing.

Oh yeah, and next time you are getting ready to try to tear apart my argument remember, you're the ones stressing tolerance. Sure I get my opinion, but you get to tell me it's stupid because society deems it to be? Where is my freedom of speech, my freedom of religion, and my freedom of press?


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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Tiana on Wed May 22, 2013 8:45 am

Noone is trying to rip anyone apart here. She was just trying to point out how confusing your post was to her. Noone is calling you stupid either. We all have different beliefs and sometimes those beliefes clash.

The only thing I can really clarify for you is the Leviticus thing. The point in that one was, if you believe his thing about gays and follow it, you should follow his other rules too. Like not eating shellfish or wearing mixed fabrics.

People are getting a little deffensive here, please, calm down. We are here to discuss you opinions, and hopefully build a bridge between our different beliefs. If you feel you ae being attacked, I am most sincerely sorry, that was not the intention of this thread.


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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Miara on Wed May 22, 2013 8:51 am

Ok, so the Leviticus thing. I'm not going by Leviticus. I can honestly say I've never actually read Leviticus. Which is why I haven't addressed it. But I can say that Jesus can to fulfill the law. Anything that God has made clean is clean, so shellfish is ok. The fabric thing, I don't know.


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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Wed May 22, 2013 9:05 am

Ladies, ladies.... let's calm down, shall we?

Miara: you're not being attacked, you're being asked to clarify your views. This is what happens in a debate. I'm sorry, but if you are not able to have a civil debate without feeling attacked and getting defensive, please do not engage in it to begin with. It's stressful for all concerned.

Secondly: The only reason we asked you about the book of Leviticus is because you informed me that all the laws in that book do not apply to you.... only the one about gays. If you have not read it, I recommend it. It IS part of the Bible, after all. If you are going to inform me that my pointing out the other laws in Leviticus are invalid, then you must be able to explain why. Ask your parents or your pastor if you don't understand why only the one rule in Leviticus applies, but the rules about shaving your hair, selling your daughter into slavery, stoning your neighbours for working on the Sabbath, eating shellfish, and etc are not applicable and yet the rule against gays is still applicable.

You HAVE your freedom of expression; you're currently using it to get angry. You have your freedom of religion; nobody here is telling you to change your religion. You also have your freedom of speech which, again, you're using right now.

However, your freedom of religion *only extends as far as the next persons begin*. You have every right to believe gays are evil, sinful, etc. What you don't have is the right to apply your religious rights onto their secular, legal freedoms. That is all we have been saying.

Magic Pooper misquoted me. I wasn't talking about what is "normal." I was asking about what is *natural*. It is unnatural to use hair spray, hair dye, pierce your ears, get a tattoo (and that's against Leviticus's rules, too,) It is unnatural to burn fuel, to use plastics, to wear synthetic fabrics. It is unnatural to have air conditioning, central heating, or to eat processed foods filled with preservatives. And yet, these things are all accepted everyday ordinary things. So what's the difference between that and gay people having the right to get married, be there if their spouse is dying in the hospital, have the right to attend the funeral without being banned by close-minded family?

All we are asking is for you to explain this cognitive dissonance going on here. I have read the Bible... repeatedly.... and Jesus talked about love. One of the sins he hated most was "indifference to human need". He preached that people sell all their goods and give the money to the poor. He was concerned that people were okay, taken care of.

And that's what I want, too. I want people to have safety, to have the right to cuddle their lover, whoever they may be. The right to be there if their beloved is dying in the hospital, or has died in an accident. I want people to feel safe being themselves, without fear of ending up like Mathew Shepard, or any of the hundreds of gay teens that kill themselves every year... because someone, somewhere, said they were evil, unnatural, and sinful.

Miara, please understand that nobody is attacking YOU. We are questioning your ideas, beliefs, and opinions. If you keep the same ideas, beliefs, and opinions, that's fine. But the key to understanding is discussion and understanding, if not agreement.

Oh, and I feel it only fair to point out that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek. The New Testament, what bits of it survived, were written only partly in Greek. ALL of the original manuscripts have been lost over a thousand years ago, in fact. The Old Testament is a translation of a corrupted manuscript from around the 9th century. So, according to both Biblical historians and secular historians, there is no certifiably accurate Bible in existence today. In fact, if you have one and you read it (and somehow never read Leviticus), you have in your possession a priceless artefact which should go to a museum. Due to the fact that both Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek are "lost" languages (nobody speaks them today) and that they languished for hundreds of years before being translated, and the translations we have today are based on literally hundreds of translations over the years based on long lost manuscripts, nobody will ever know for sure what is right and what is wrong.

(Sorry, but I AM a prehistory geek archaeologist.)
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Miara on Thu May 23, 2013 8:23 am

Yeah, sorry abut yesterday...

It's not just in Leviticus that the bible talks about gays not being ok. Genesis and Paul's letters as well.
Ok, the unnatural thing. Each one is a tool to make life easier. Tools are ok.
Yes, He did talk about love, and yes He didn't want any one to be close minded. But at the same time, He cannot tolerate sin; cannot be near it. He destroyed whole cultures because sin is the opposite of what he is. He considers Hate and Anger to be murder, lust to be adultery. However, you'll notice that in his life, He never shied away from sinners, quite the contrary, He drew them to Him. He saved them from their sins by having nails driven into His wrists and ankles and a spear run through His abdomen. He did all this to save them.
The bible was written originally in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Historical evidence depends upon how recently after an event was it written down (or at least, that's what I was taught). The earliest manuscripts written of the bible were 80 years after Jesus was resurrected. There is more historical proof that Jesus was resurrected from the dead than there is that Julius Caesar existed at all (earliest manuscripts 200 years after his death).

Fun fact: my dad is my pastor.

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Thu May 23, 2013 12:23 pm

Hey, we all have bad days. Very Happy Don’t worry about it. We know how it goes.

Actually, that’s really cool that your dad is a pastor. Makes it convenient to ask someone about those tough theological issues.

As far as I’ve read it, Jesus never said a word about homosexuality (tho the word itself didn’t exist until the 1800’s) Rather, in Matt 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10 Jesus heals a centurion's "servant." We are told in the passage that the Centurion held him as precious, and he is called pais, which is a term used for a receptive male partner. Jesus commended the centurion for his faith and healed the "servant." This, to me, speaks more about Jesus holding love as the highest human value.

The concept of “sin” is subjective. What is sin to one, is normal behavior to another. Among many American Indian tribes, same-sex partnerships were normal and even held in higher esteem. They had “two-spirits”, seen as holding the power of both man AND woman and were therefore more sacred, closer to the Creator. The bible itself discusses sin in many different ways and with different viewpoints and ideas, and contradicts itself pretty often. Then, due to the multiple translations and mistranslations as well as the task of trying to translate an ancient lost organic language into a modern language is inevitably going to result in a good deal of translator’s bias. You will read, and then translate the words, into a manner that best fits your own ideals and values. It’s human nature. There are words in every single language that do not have an exact translation in another language, and so the translator must choose something that is close enough to get the main idea across. However, the original intent of the author may get lost in this effort.

You know, I knew someone a long time ago who said almost the exact same words to me. “I don’t hate black people, in fact I have many black friends. I just don’t believe interracial marriage is natural. It says so in the Bible. I mean, God created white people but left black people to evolve from monkeys in Africa, you know. So obviously he never intended there to be a mixing of the races.” Aside from the absolute lack of understanding of the theory of evolution making this anthropologist’s spine itch, that struck me as one of the most racist comments I have ever heard, as well as supremely arrogant.

I mean, I can’t even understand higher mathematics (“The cosine combined with the negative differential squared divided by the circus clown’s waist circumference plus the height of a cow to the power of ten makes x equal what?! Can’t we just, like, do a forensic investigation and force x to reveal himself using fingerprints and DNA matching?!”) who am I to claim to know the mind, heart, and intentions of an omnipotent being?

If God is love, then any love that harms none is done in the eyes of God. That’s my view. To me, the real sin is causing harm to those who don't harm others.









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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Ipoopmagic18 on Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm

I has comment on the Caesar thing.
The manuscripts are the things that archeologists have dug up so far. There are no 'original' documents because they
1. didn't survive 2000 years.
2. haven't been found yet.
they are still finding things ALL the time. Sorry if this is groundbreaking news to you but history is like water, it changes all the freaking time because they keep finding new stuff. Europe did go through several centuries of dark ages after Rome fell. Most likely the documents went over to Byzantium (the other half of the empire) and the original ones in Rome were destroyed by the Visigoths and other tribes that squashed rome under their barbarian feet. They were brought to light around the Renaissance when Europe was becoming smart again.
The Romans were also pretentious record keeping mofos, despite being rather savage they were very organized, especially during Caesars time.
Compare that to the followers of Jesus....well... most didn't know how to write and the story was passed on by word of mouth for several decades in the least until it was finally written.
So which man do you think has more evidence that he existed now? Caesar (and his whole family and political rivals and their families and etc. etc.) had a birth certificate, he wrote a book about his travels in war that we can still read today. The copies exist and survive, but not the originals. (you can also learn Latin and read it in the original language today.) That doesn't mean that it was 200 years before someone decided to write down his political explotes.
Poor Jesus has none of these official things and could have been some story an old drunk made up and a bunch of people liked it so much they wrote it down.
Juuuuuuuust wanted to point out the flaw in your argument....
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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Thu May 23, 2013 3:27 pm

Magic Pooper: Sure you don't want to be an archaeologist when you grow up?! Very Happy

I actually wasn't going to go into that argument; but I had the same thoughts. There are contemporary writings for Caesar (IE writings that happened while he was alive and have survived the centuries); none for Jesus. Caesar has autobiographies; Jesus has none. We know Caesar's entire family tree. And so on.

I feel I must include this to show that not only were these not written 200 years after his death, they were written by Julius Ceasar himself during his lifetime...

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Julius-Caesar-Illustrated-ebook/dp/B007R3QZ2A/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1369345697&sr=8-12&keywords=Julius+Caesar

The other difference is, Caesar is not proclaimed to be anything but a military commander, and we have PLENTY of historical proof that he existed. We know exactly what year he was born, and when he died. Jesus, on the other hand, was only written about decades after his death. There are no contemporary writings. He wrote no autobiographies. We don't know his birth or death years precisely. He also never claimed to be the son of god, any more so than any one else. He was a prophet, he brought the word of his beliefs to the world.... as does anyone else who is devout. Actually, his divinity wasn't decided until he had been dead 500 years. There is some scant contemporary historical evidence that there was a man named Jesus, who was a middle-eastern Jewish teacher (which means he was NOT white, unlike all the Western pictures you see which are so incredibly racist!)

And, as far as I know, there is not a single shred of historically valid evidence that Jesus is a zombie. The Shroud of Turin has been proven to have been painted in the 12th century using paints of the time, and it wouldn't prove anything anyway, other than that they wrapped dead people up in fabric (which is historically verified.) I actually would love to see the archaeological and historical proof positive that Jesus rose from the dead that trumps the countless artefacts and contemporary writings from Ancient Rome that prove Ceasar existed....

Miara, could you please provide some links to peer-reviewed articles about scientific proof of Jesus' resurrection? I would really be very happy to read them. (Honestly.) Remember that documentation does not equal proof; otherwise in 2,000 years someone could dig up a set of Harry Potter books and build a religion around them claiming that these pieces of paper are "proof". I'm talking about artefacts, archaeological evidence. The written historical record is always, always subjective and is therefore tainted by the author's bias. Put another way; history is written by the winners. There needs to be a physical record to verify and bolster the written record.

I mean, "Gilgamesh" is one of the oldest written stories, but nobody claims that as proof that a clay person is physically possible...

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by Miara on Thu May 23, 2013 5:03 pm

Miss Pepper, for your first argument: The Bible is clear that sin is not subjective. And let's go over this before we return to the debate we are supposed to be having. I would say that either the bible is completely a lie--all of it, not just the parts we would prefer to focus on--or, the Bible is the true word of God.

Is sin really sin? Yes, sin is sin. Is any of it subjective? No, just because everyone thinks something is okay, doesn't mean it actually is okay. There are societies that thrive on human trafficking. Just because they think it's okay, is it okay?

Can you clarify love for me? Or the way you're thinking of it? Because homosexuality has negative side effects (Whether recognized or not) that I might consider harmful.

So if my freedom of religion "only extends as far as the next persons begin" would that also stand to reason that I am only as free as my neighbor lets me be? Am I then a slave to my neighbor? Wouldn't me considering the afore mentioned side effects harmful mean that I'm invading your idea of freedom so I should stop?

Then am I really free?

In regards to your second: Both the Roman Christians (under the rule of Constantin I) and the Gnostics (who Constantin was trying to destroy) believed that Jesus not only rose from the dead, but also was at least the Son of God (Romans) and that he was purely divine; his human body to be merely an illusion (Gnostics).

I will get back to you on the rest of it, since I don't have it with me currently.

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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Thu May 23, 2013 5:33 pm

Well, me personally? I would say that the Bible is a book. Just like any other book. People worship the oddest things. The Bible is just the most recent example of that. Therefore, sin is subjective; even the Bible contradicts itself constantly. The idea that the Bible is the word of god or just another book like the Qu'ran, the Harry Potter series, or the Necronomicon, is subjective. I see it as just a book. You see it as the word of god. We are both right. We both KNOW we are right. It's very subjective.

Other than the hatred of society and bigots, I've not seen any harmful "side effects" of homosexuality. Love is love. Period. If you truly love another adult, consenting human being, you should have the right to the legal and secular benefits of a permanent union. It's ridiculous to deny some people rights that others have in this respect.

So if my freedom of religion "only extends as far as the next persons begin" would that also stand to reason that I am only as free as my neighbor lets me be? Am I then a slave to my neighbor?

Sooooo... you choose to enslave your neighbour, instead? To force them to live by YOUR rules, YOUR beliefs, YOUR ideas of religion, right, wrong, and sin?

To answer the question, however; no, of course you're not enslaved to your neighbour by respecting them and leaving them alone to live their lives, as long as they harm none. There is no reason to deny legal and secular marriage to gays. There is absolutely every reason to give churches the right to deny gays the freedom to marry within your church... but there is no reason to deny LEGAL... outside of the church.... benefits to gay members of the population. None. And, it violates the separation of church and state. That is what freedom of religion means. You can practice your religion and your church can decide what is right and wrong for the members of the congregation, but not what is right and wrong in the legal sphere or for members of the community outside the congregation.

Now, I don't know if you actively campaign against gay rights or you just quietly have your views but you don't go out of your way to prevent gay rights from becoming law. If you just quietly have your opinion and views, but don't expect the legal world to reflect your opinions, then you're absolutely in the right and you absolutely have the freedom to do that. You absolutely have every right to hate their lifestyle choices, to refuse to go to fabulous and fashionable gay weddings, to refuse to allow gays to marry in your church. What you do not have is the right to force others to live by your religious views.

THAT is freedom. Freedom entails responsibility to respect the other members of your community.

Well, the Romans believed Jesus rose from the dead. And, actually, the Ancient Romans also believed that gay marriage was perfectly acceptable and normal. In fact, the Emperor Nero was married to a man, in a full state ceremony with complete pomp and ceremony and it was celebrated by the whole town. Gay marriages were fully accepted in Ancient Rome.

So, I'm with you. Let's pull back some of the beliefs from Ancient Rome.

.....of course, the ancient Romans also believed that 12 year old girls should marry, that vomiting after eating so one can eat more was okay, and that owning slaves was okay.

Jesus himself, as I quoted above, had no issue with homosexual relationships.... in fact, after healing the male lover of a man, complimented the man on his loyalty to his boyfriend.

Who are we to do less?




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Re: Your opinion on Gay rights

Post by The_Pepper on Thu May 23, 2013 5:57 pm

Tiana: maybe you SHOULD move this to the debate section. *grins* However, I am enjoying this debate and the directions it's gone, so don't shut it down! Smile Mutual respect and mutual learning are the keys to an evolving productive society.
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